Posted by Kate Phizackerley on Sunday, July 04, 2010

There has been some fantastic material in the comments recently - thank you - but I suspect only a fraction of the visitors here notice it.  So while news is quiet over the summer, I thought I would offer the chance of guest articles.  If you have regularly left comments here over the past two or three months and would like to write one or more guest posts then please contact me. 

(When Andie and I get Egptological up and running that may be the better place for guest posts long term but that was delayed by the WordPress 3.0 release.  I'm hoping to get back to development tomorrow.)


Marianne Luban said...

See this!

Kate Phizackerley said...

Ah the racial analysis of the Pharaohs. There is so much racist rubbish written that I tend to be very distrustful of everything printed on the subject. I need to be able to do the analysis myself and at present I am not able to do that.

Marianne Luban said...

Eh? I didn't find that site racist, but I was hoping you'd be able to shed some light on how the individual who claimed to be able to reconstruct the haplotype R1b out of Tut's other genetic information. Anyway, the haplotype didn't originate in Europe but in Western Asia. I am sorry if you think it's racist to wonder about the origins of some of the ancient Egyptians--but many do who have no such agenda whatsoever. Besides, it's already known that the family in question has a dominant bloodgroup that is rare in Egypt. And with that I am done posting here.

Kate Phizackerley said...

I'm not suggesting that article is racist, but it's a politically charged topic and I'm too ignorant about it. I do wonder whether evidence relating to Pharaonic race has been supressed.

I'm very sorry if I've offended you. I my reason for caution in this area is that I don't want to offend people.

Can you please forgive me?


Adrienne Giacon said...

Yes I find Dna testing fascinating too. I have had my own tested. National geographic have a project called the Genographic project, using DNA to track the migration of ancient peoples. A lot of cultures believe that you are linked spiritually with your ancestors- Samoan, Maori - Asian, and thus it is important to know where you have come from. Dna testing is showing that many an cient people have travelled a lot further than was previously thought. It lasts longer than some artefacts!
I had read a similar post on an other dna forum, that the closest match was Prussian. But am not sure if that means that
Amenhotep III came from that area or ...some of his offspring went on to live in that area and produce many children.

Someone like Genghis Khan for instance has left a substantial genetic trail of descendents.

Which is why most people interested in genetics want to know the haplogroup, because it is what links these ancient people to the people that here today. It is a tangible link from the past to the future.
I do not think that is rascist. In fact if anything it shows that there is no clear line for race.
AS there is often many races within the same haplogroup.
When looking at mitochondrial dna - MTNA, Haplogroup B, has started in Africa, through the middle east, the americas, Asia and the Pacific. Even shows in Hungary. Tracing the dna can show the journey that the ancestors have been on. I did find the link to Egyptian Dreams site with much of the JAMA paper published on it good too.

Thanks Marianne.

Kate Phizackerley said...

Of course it's not racist to want to understand such things. My problem is that there is a lot of racist or racially-baised material published. I've read too many arguments that Moses was Akhenaten and Aryan and the true founder of the Aryan race. On the other side, I have observed that many Egytian archaeologists insist that the Pharoahs were Egyptians of African heritage but when the chance was there in the Tutankhamun study to test that at a genetic level the tests were not done - or at least the relevant data was not published since there has been no definitive statement on what tests were done. That concerns me.

I always say - in any field - look for the secure ground and build out from there. My personal problem is that I haven't found secure ground and I'm not sure I would recognise it anyway given my level of knowledge. I need to educate myself before I pronounce anything on such subjects because I wouldn't presently spot bias in anything that is written. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done or studid. It is something that interests me. If there are peer-reviewed papers on the subject of the haplotype of New Kingdom Pharaohs I'd be massively interested. Until then I need to sort wheat from chaff. If you can help do that, then I would be grateful.

There are issues in there. The Amarna male elongated skulls is definitely something that merits more study. It's put down to banding as a child - but I am unaware of any evidence of the practice from reliefs. So far as I am aware the practice anyway had it's origins in the Greater Levant rather than Africa which suggests that the influence from outside Africa was strong. That should be followed up. Or it could be genetic.

If haplotyping is something that you and others are interested in, then I will educate myself so that I can comment lucidly on haplotypes. At present I know I can't and am worried about making a fool of myself if I try.

I really am sorry I upset you.

Marianne Luban said...

Kate, you certainly deserve the benefit of the doubt and I accept your regrets. Unfortunately, I have lost my further remarks on account of the posting problem here.

Kate Phizackerley said...

I've not a lot of control over the posting problem as it's hosted on Blogger. I think/hope it's a temporary blip. If it isn't then I'll move the site to a self-hosted WordPress blog but that's not something that can be done quickly.

Anonymous said...

marianne, can i say how much i have enjoyed your informed contributions in the past and i am so glad you have accepted Kates heart felt apology, and will now keep on posting though i cant help thinking you were both meaning different things anyway, regards both daveh.

Stephanie said...

In my opinion it is very interesting to explore the ethnical background of the royal family. There`s a remote chance that it could even help to sort out some unanswered questions such as if some queens were likely of foreign orogin.

But I think it is currently very unsafe to do so. There is no officially published work on this issue, and trying to establish haplotype groups from screenshots is unsecure.
We don`t know for sure if the data shown really belongs to the person we think it does, if the data can be read correctly and, very important, if this is the data which has been finally worked out and reviewed.
Just think of the discrepancies between Tut`s and the foetus`s data as it was displayed on the screen and as it was published in the JAMA paper.

It is tempting of course to try to work out this information but IMO we should wait until data is officially released.

Besides, I think that even if we some day will get to know the definite haplogroups of Tut and family, we will still not be able to trace their roots beyond any doubt as there are always many places where a certain haplotype may have originated from: the haplotype which is favoured in the dna discussion forum occurs in Western Europe, Asia, even Prussia but also in Sub-sahara Africa (Chad).
So which one are we to chose?

Kate Phizackerley said...

@Adrienne, They aren't all quite identical. I've thinned them out though. Not sure what the problem was with Blogger. Sorry.

Lanh Tran Van said...


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