Comments on News from the Valley of the Kings: DNA Shows that KV55 Mummy Probably Not Akhenaten

David As a favour to a reader if you send me an au...

2011-04-07T16:55:44.541+01:00

David
As a favour to a reader if you send me an author's mini review or synopsis I will post it on the blog.
Congrats on another publication.
Kate

Strangely, I have already have a book called '...

2011-04-07T16:39:06.082+01:00

Strangely, I have already have a book called 'The Moses legacy' by Graham Philips 2002; [ISBN 0 283 07315 2]

Hi Kate, I just wanted to let you know the latest ...

2011-04-07T16:22:20.082+01:00

Hi Kate,
I just wanted to let you know the latest about my thriller. It is due to be published on May 19th under the title The Moses Legacy. I have now been renamed "Adam Palmer" to distinguish this book from my legal thrillers - I am reborn as "Adam" a new man ;-)

The book retains the speculation, but with a clever twist. If you like to indulge in the adventure, I would be honoured (and hopefully flattered) to hear your opinions on the book in due course.

David I have not worked it with pen and paper but ...

2010-08-24T19:43:37.848+01:00

David
I have not worked it with pen and paper but I believe your latest idea is not inconsistent with the published DNA. Another alternative might be to assume that Ankhesenamun was pregnant before she was married to Tutankhamun. You could even rework the letter from the Hittite King to suggest that Ay was trying to claim Ankhesenamun as his wife when Akhenaten died (or when Smenkhare died) and she appealed to the Hittite King. He got her prgenant but another faction at court won and placed Tutankhamun on the throne. I know the purists will dislike the idea (and I'm not suggesting that is what *did* happen) but it seems to be something that is possible within the known facts that could be used within a fictional account. Y

I have thought of another explanation of the discr...

2010-08-24T11:01:56.041+01:00

I have thought of another explanation of the discrepancy regarding the DNA of the fetuses that also involves incest and adultery but does NOT involve Nefertiti.

What if Fetus 1 were the result of an adulterous union between Ay and his (presumed) granddaughter Ankhesenamun? History records that Ay married her after the death of Tutankhamun to outmaneuver Horemheb and gain the thrown. But what if it went beyond that?

Let's look at locus D7S820. Tutankhamun presented (10,15) and Akhenaten had (15,15) If Ay had (13,6), Neferiti had (13,anything) and Ankhesenamun had (15,13) then Fetus 1 could have got 10 from King Tut and 13 from Ankhesenamun. While Fetus 2 could have got 15 from Ankhesenamun and 6 from Ay.

There are too many holes in the rest of the DNA to build up a complete picture, but as far as i can tell there are no definite exclusions.

Regarding the younger boy alongside the older and ...

2010-08-23T08:25:13.425+01:00

Regarding the younger boy alongside the older and younger lady, has any DNA work been done on his mummy and is there any more information on his relationship to the other mummy's?

Also, it seems there is a very quick leap for Hawass to conclude and state that KV35YL cannot be Nefertiti, with all of the statistical possibilies still of the mummy's relationships still undetermined, and DNA data still unreleased for others to examine.

I don't have a problem with Thutmose in terms ...

2010-08-18T22:14:05.435+01:00

I don't have a problem with Thutmose in terms of the DNA but archaeologically it seems unlikely.

kate,if the kv 55 mummy is not Akhenaten but is an...

2010-08-18T21:16:32.295+01:00

kate,if the kv 55 mummy is not Akhenaten but is another son of Amenhotep 3, could it not be Crown Prince Thutmose as opposed to Smenkhare? From what i can make out if the earlier theory as to the skeletons age is correct ie mid 20s then this may not rule out Thutmose who was known to have had a priestly and military role. Also as with Akhenaten is he not likely to have had a co - regency with Amenhotep 3, thus justifying a more significant burial. Also the much younger boy placed alongside the elder and younger ladies would probably be too young to be Thutmose.

That is indeed the purpose of fiction: it is a way...

2010-08-18T17:42:50.116+01:00

That is indeed the purpose of fiction: it is a way of exploring reality. Certain aspects are highlighted by relaxing other constraints. It's why Fantasy is my favourite genre.

@Anonymous

"In review of the 'brilliant" erudition posted on this site linking flimsy evidence, or no evidence, to support wild assertions..."

You are entitled to disagree with my analysis but I don't believe the DNA evidence is flimsy, rather I think that some people don't understand how to interpret the DNA evidence and have come to wrong conclusions ... usually thinking the data says what they want it to say.

"In review of the 'brilliant' eruditi...

2010-08-18T15:28:59.674+01:00

"In review of the 'brilliant' erudition posted on this site linking flimsy evidence, or no evidence, to support wild assertions,"

A bit of a strong conclusion to draw about a book not yet written. The strength or weakness of the evidence can only be judged by the book itself. A lot of people seem to have dismissed the JAMA paper and decided that the mummy in KV55 is NOT Akhenaten on the strength of pretty flimsy evidence, or because it challenges their previously held views.

"..the authors then tell of their plans to resort to fiction as a platform to propose and support a possible history, and themselves also."

I'm not sure what "Anonymous" means by "themselves also" but if a person is a novelist by vocation then it is natural that he should use fiction to explore (not propose, much less support) various scenarios pertaining to the past.

"Might it be better to spend your time supporting real digging for the remaining evidence,"

Has anyone opposed this?

... before creating an interpretation to support established canons of the faiths involved in these stories?..."

That is not my purpose. I do not believe that Biblical history is true. But I believe that the stories in the Bible did not spring purely from human imagination, but in some cases through past events that have been retold (and reformatted) through the generations. And it is this link that I want to explore.

"Comprehanesives digging such as at the site of Memphis in Egypt might unearth libraries of ancient writings, some of which might actually be factual."

Indeed they might and I hope they do. But should novelists interested in such matters adopt a moratorium in the meantime?

" Why resort to flimsy evidence to create supposed links that support Biblical "history"?"

Not "support" - explore!

"This Biblical "history" surviving in the form of scripture appears to have been written, in different parts and times and edited into one nearly conforming copy at a time well removed from any of the true events."

Perfectly true - I never said otherwise, and this is one of the themes I propose to explore.

"The canonical text in question that survives today appears chock full of Mesopatamian underlying myths, not only Egyptian myths."

That is true of some - notably Noah's flood. But the focus of my novel will be the Egyptian myths of Joseph and Moses.

"Please excuse my spelling as I am very visually imparted, but I can still sniff out a lot of junk."

Do not take this as an insult, but your apparent hostility to the use of fiction to explore factual themes reminds me of Thomas Gradgrind in Charles Dickens's Hard Times

Funny word Myths "A traditional story accepte...

2010-08-18T05:57:46.071+01:00

Funny word Myths
"A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people"
History from Mesopotamia possibly because Abraham came from UR. And Egypt well the people in question had just escaped from there.

But on a literary point I like fiction that explores history not run away with it

A search for more writings sounds good

In review of the "brilliant" erudition p...

2010-08-17T16:27:39.880+01:00

In review of the "brilliant" erudition posted on this site linking flimsy evidence, or no evidence, to support wild assertions, not facts, the authors then tell of their plans to resort to fiction as a platform to propose and support a possible history, and themselves also. Might it be better to spend your time supporting real digging for the remaining evidence, before creating an interpretation to support established canons of the faiths involved in these stories? Comprehanesives digging such as at the site of Memphis in Egypt might unearth libraries of ancient writings, some of which might actually be factual. Why resort to flimsy evidence to create supposed links that support Biblical "history"? This Biblical "history" surviving in the form of scripture appears to have been written, in different parts and times and edited into one nearly conforming copy at a time well removed from any of the true events. The canonical text in question that survives today appears chock full of Mesopatamian underlying myths, not only Egyptian myths. Please excuse my spelling as I am very visually imparted, but I can still sniff out a lot of junk.

My view is that Moses may have been Amenmesse - wh...

2010-08-17T14:12:00.769+01:00

My view is that Moses may have been Amenmesse - who may or may not have been Messuwy, viceroy of Kush and/or "Msy" who is mentioned in Papyrus Salt 124 - which in turn may have evolved by the historical process of Chinese whispers into the story of Moses intervening to save the "slave" from being flogged (i.e. Paneb - the adopted son of Neferhotep - gradually evolving into a slave).

I also believe that "Moses" in his attempt to usurp the throne from Sethi II, may have exploited various disenfranchised migrant and itinerant workers and the social underclass ("Isrir" "the Shasu of Ywh" and others) in his power struggle. This could also explain the separate parallel traditions that yielded the Jarwist and Elohist contributions to what became the Torah/Pentateuch.

But I fear we are moving off topic. Write to me if you want to know about what I freely admit are wild speculations.

I think I know what you're getting at but your...

2010-08-13T17:36:11.015+01:00

I think I know what you're getting at but your mention of the golden calf itself negates Freud's idea. Those people involved in an exodus from Egypt seemed to manifest the familiar--an Egyptian bovine god and ultimately a tabernacle that is, as described in the Bible, most certainly an Egyptian portable shrine, carrying poles and all. Even the monotheism of Moses was not so unique in light of the possibility that monotheism in the form of the worship of the sun disc may have been in vogue at the time, although the God of Moses seems to have more the characteristics of Amun, whose name means "hidden" in Egyptian and who, while portrayed as a man, was rather ephemeral.

Moses, for his part, had been raised as an Egyptian and even his Hebrew family had lived in Egypt for generations. And, despite what many seem to think and even the Bible suggests, there was no nationalism or ethnic identity for them to cling to in order to make them a sub-culture in Egypt. Regardless, Moses may have adopted the foreign deity El, anyway, as the Egyptians did have some alien gods in their pantheon and were accustomed to such. But why the followers of Moses would have stayed at Serabit el Khadim long enough for Proto-Sinaitic to become a familiar graphic system, a common denominator, you'll have to explain. It was not a very hospitable environment around those mines. Most people in antiquity had no use for any graphic systems and the literate were relatively few. The motivation for someone to actually create a manuscript using these glyphs would have to be very strong to be believable under the circumstances. In the final analysis, I believe it was the Phoenicians who first used the alphabet derived from Proto-Sinaitic, which was then adopted by the Jews in the form of the Proto-Hebrew script--but not until after they settled in the Levant.

Mariane: "That's why scholars are fairl...

2010-08-13T10:37:38.406+01:00

Mariane:

"That's why scholars are fairly certain that the Proto-Sinaitic signs are derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs--and just why they were the precursors of the Canaanite script is not known."

I believe that Freud's explanation of why the uneducated Asiatic Semites created a new Abjad from hieroglyphics (instead of using the existing hieroglyphic phonetics) was because they believed that man was created in the image of God and didn't want to use symbolic representations of man. However, as far as I can tell, the only Egyptian phonetic showing a human image is the equivalent of the letter B. And on the other hand, the proto-Sinaitic alphabet uses man-like symbols for the phonemes H and R.

So the mystery is far from cleared up. But as to whether a credible story could be written around the premise that sophisticated writings were found in proto-Sinaitic script, one "explanation" of this admittedly fictional premise might be that the writer was educated, but wanted his writings to be accessible to the less educated.

Another thing, the mines at Serabit el-Kedim are very near both to the temple of Hathor, the cow goddess (think "Golden Calf") and quite near to Mount Hashem el-Tarif (one of the candidate mountains for Mount Sinai).

David, I believe in literary license being an auth...

2010-08-12T17:45:32.549+01:00

David, I believe in literary license being an author, myself, but, in reality, if someone were to discover a manuscript in Proto-Sinaitic they could be assured it would not be suppressed but probably considered a forgery!

The reason there are no manuscripts in Proto-Sinaitic is that it was not an alphabet of the literate. Proto-Sinaitic is found around a quarry and probably originated with an illiterate worker there. It was employed mainly for graffiti and there are no long phrases in the glyphs.

The turquoise mines at Serabit el Khadim in the Sinai Peninsula were under the control of Egypt most of the time they were in operation. That's why scholars are fairly certain that the Proto-Sinaitic signs are derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs--and just why they were the precursors of the Canaanite script is not known. BUT, if some priests or otherwise educated men were sent to the quarries for some reason,[quarries were the Egyptian penal colonies] they would certainly have not used these signs but made their graffiti in hieratic as are found all over Egypt.

The thriller is set in modern times but involves f...

2010-08-11T19:06:49.772+01:00

The thriller is set in modern times but involves finding old manuscripts in proto-sinaitic script with some explosive information - and the proverbial conspirators who want to suppress it (may the literary Gods forgive me!)

I think the forensic assessment of the KV55 mummy changed and it is now accepted as that of an older man.

I don't know how plausible the unfaithful wife idea is in real life, but it makes for good thriller material - especially in conjunction with the power struggle between Ay and Horemheb, a battle for the heart and mind of the young King Tut and the violent death of what appears to be Tut's mother.

Well I loved David's latest thriller "No ...

2010-08-04T02:59:55.346+01:00

Well I loved David's latest thriller "No Way Out". And someone who can switch from Brown to Graves has a lot of skill. I just wonder what kind of fictional thriller would be set in Amarna. Could it be more thrilling than the DNA etc discussion. HOWEVER I must say that the unfaithful wife ideas are a most unlikely possibility.

I think that KV55 not being Akhenaten is much more likely. Wasn't the forensics of age etc already indicating that?

Thanks. The reason I asked is that I am writing a...

2010-08-02T14:22:36.625+01:00

Thanks. The reason I asked is that I am writing a thriller set against a background of the Amarna period. It was supposed to be "Dan Brown" style, but I suspect that it is going to end up more "Robert Graves" or even "Umberto Eco" - slightly less commercial but hopefully more intellectual.

David, That's far and away the most astute com...

2010-07-29T19:11:59.491+01:00

David,
That's far and away the most astute comment on this article IMO. You are certainly right: if Nefertiti was unfaithful then it is possible for Akhenaten to be the mummy in KV55. The father would have to be a male from the royal family because we know that the Y-chromosome was inherited by Tutankhamun, but a close relative would be most likely anyway.

Whether that is possible or not involves a projection of our understandings of fidelity onto the royal court and that may be unreasonable. Perhaps women were allowed sexual freedom. I don't think we know.

Personally I doubt it when it comes to the royal family. All the impression is that the king succeeded by Divine Right and not merely by inheritance. There's a difference. There is a sense that a king was chosen of the Gods - became a God. Under those circumstances, I would be surprised if women were given sexual freedom, but maybe I am wrong.

So yes, you are right. I think it's unlikely but I quite agree it's possible

Kate, you wrote: "Therefore either KV55 isn’t...

2010-07-29T15:38:45.629+01:00

Kate, you wrote: "Therefore either KV55 isn’t Akhenaten or one of our assumption is wrong eg Ankhesenamun wasn’t the daughter of Akhenaten (almost impossible)..."

Why is it impossible? We know that maternity was easier (in ancient times) to determine than paternity? And your observation about the Chinese practice of foot-binding suggests that the desire/temptation for adultery was not exclusive to men. Is it not possible that Nefertiti had a bit on the side? Especially if she was competing (albeit unsuccessfully) with Kiya to produce a male heir? Possibly even incestuous adultery with her father Ay?

I am not suggesting that she shared this information with Akhenaten. But their is strong evidence that both Ay and Nefertiti were capable of considerable intrigue. Once one factors in the possibility that Nefertiti was the mother of Ankhesenamun, but Akhenaten was NOT the father, your objections to the "official" interpretation of the DNA study no longer apply.

Hello ; I have sent a mail to Mme Kate Phizackerly...

2010-06-23T08:50:45.708+01:00

Hello ; I have sent a mail to Mme Kate Phizackerly the seventh of june through the blog-mail-form but had no sign or confirmation if only it was well sent ( here its archive can be found : http://www.psybakh.net/2010/20100322082800_flog-2.htm#20100607155500 ) - If Kate or someone else wishes to answer I can be contacted at wtheaux@club-internet.fr ; it is only in order to know the state of the controversial about KV55 for I shall be updating my own thesis (about Velikovsky's and Freud's cases regarding Oedipus and Akhnaton)
Dr William Theaux

(res...) I wish the antiquities department would...

2010-05-28T09:02:36.878+01:00

(res...)

I wish the antiquities department would concern themselves more with the facts instead of publicity. I know publicity gets them money to do more work, but publicity that publicizes inaccuracies isn't worth a thing. Sure it'd look great to have 'identifier of the heretic king Ankhenaten' on your resume, but what good is it if it's a bunch of BS due to hasty assumptions? Ankhenaten's mummy more likely than not doesn't exist anymore, and what we're looking at here is a family relationship just outside of his immediate line that is more intricate and fascinating than his failed reign anyway.

This got a little long winded, but to close, I just wanted to say thanks for doing this great analysis.

-M

This is an extremely thorough report, and once aga...

2010-05-28T09:02:06.965+01:00

This is an extremely thorough report, and once again the antiquities department is clearly caught with their pants down on this one thanks to their overzealous assumptions once again (anyone remember the hatsheptsut documentary? "I found a tooth in a box with hatshepsut's name on it! Hey, this mummy is missing a tooth! It must be hatshepsut! *no dna testing*")

While I'm not exactly a science buff, I can answer a lot of the cultural questions posed here. One, it's clear that the 'Amarna Style' of art is just that- a style. Whether it has to do with an actual deformity is still up for debate but what's fairly certain is that it wasn't anything everybody had or else we would've seen it in art a lot earlier than that. Rulers and nobility ARE portrayed with their deformities, either graphically depicted (like tut with his canes) or verbally depicted (noting medicine quantities for specific ailments on tomb walls and inventories for example). The fact that this Amarna style is not equated by the egyptians themselves to any specific remedy like everything else suggests that it is more likely than naught just a style preference. Grotesque, yes, but I think after 3,000 years it is apparent that Ankhenaten was a bit of a head case.

Another extremely, extremely important point to be aware of is communication and records as provided in carved reliefs. Ankhenaten had FOUR DAUGHTERS. FOUR. DAUGHTERS. If that man had had any sort of male heir after four failed attempts and making one, I think you could pretty much bet money on him having something to say about it, and there are quite literally zero reliefs announcing the birth of a male heir in any sense of the word. It is almost impossible to consider Tut as a son of Ankehnaten due to this significant lack of claim. I personally think that Smenkhare is the best bet for the one they've found in this tomb and who is Tut's father. Smenkhare ruled for roughly two years at best, even as a co-regent at times, but that would still qualify him as a pharaoh and thus the title of 'king's son' to Tut. However, shortly after Tut took the throne, the capitol was moved back to Thebes and out of Amarna which became a ghost town, and Ankhenaten's name, and Smenkhare's name, were all chiseled out from temples, buildings, and official wall records in not just amarna but in the major cities of Egypt. Therefore, is it so suprising that a king who reigned less than two years at best, and most of it as a co-regent, after having his name chiseled out would have so little left to his identity to claim to himself? The whole purpose of erasing names from structures was to hinder the remembrance of a person, as a person's name being remembered was considered crucial in order for them to retain some form in the afterlife. Destroying the mummy was the ultimate insult, also. And, seeing as how much everyone absolutely hated Ankhenaten for what he did to the religion and the capitol, I am more inclined to believe that Ankhenaten's mummy simply no longer exists due to extreme vandalism and destruction due to his unpopularity and that it will never be found. Perhaps the mummies found in this cache shared a tomb with him, and to rescue them from a similar fate were removed to where they were found.

And so, what we are left with is this: We have found a man who is king tut's father, who shares grandparents with Ankhenaten, and that is about the extent of it. With regards to the items with Ankhenaten's name on it found in the tomb, when these mummies were moved, they were often done so sloppily and hastily. Anything that might've been hanging around were undoubtedly stashed in random places to made transport go more smoothly, and let's be honest: Ankhenaten was the only king to seriously reign in Amarna- who ELSE's name to you expect to find stashed with amarna royal mummies??

(con't...)

Interesting article Kate. Bring to light all the ...

2010-03-26T15:59:51.774Z

Interesting article Kate. Bring to light all the issues. You are prominently noted. http://www.dylanb.me.uk/wp/?cat=18